mxogyny x persistent & nasty: part 2
The voluntary commitment of Elaine, Louise and Misha to P&N’s cause is laudable. Nevertheless, it raises an important question about who the labour falls on when a social cause needs it most.
Elaine: There’s this thing, and maybe I’m being unfair to our male counterparts, but there is definitely a tendency for those committed to social justice that we will happily give our time to raise each other up. And maybe I’m wrong, but it definitely feels like women and the LGBTQ+ communities are more than happy to give up their time.
Misha: I wonder whether it’s because of the expectation sometimes, as we said before, of the cis white male blagging his way in, feeling that they are the owner of every space, with no qualms asking to be paid. But if you’ve been at all marginalised you feel on the back foot, so you think it’s necessary to put in that little bit extra.
Louise: What frustrates me the most, and we see this time and time again, is that it’s the people who are most impacted by these issues who are the ones shouting for change. Those who are comfortable are not on the picket line. It really gets me that the labour, and the burden of making change, falls on the shoulders of those who are most crushed by it. And that is something that we really want to build into our narrative but, of course, we have to do it in a ‘softly softly’ way so not to offend.
This is why the group’s name is so apt. Persistence is the way to break down barriers to the marginalised while coaxing in the ears of the influential and the privileged. Keeping those conversations happening until they must listen.
M: I love the controversy of it. The conversations it triggers are so interesting to the point we have actually started to ask at the end of our podcasts what persistent and nasty means to our guests. Hearing all these brilliant people have different interpretations of persistence. Nastiness. And how the two combined makes them feel.
E: I think what’s fascinating about the nasty thing is that we do a lot of work reclaiming words. The ‘nasty’ thing all comes from when Trump called Hilary Clinton a ‘nasty woman’ during one of their live debates - for daring to give him facts. And from that, the phrase became a badge of honour in response to Trump’s ignorance.
L: It’s essentially a response to the idea that language, in gender terms, is consistently weaponised. When people get nervous about the name and what it means, I think that they think they’re coming on to a podcast with fire-breathing, bra-burning feminists - or whatever that means. To me that speaks to a problem of conditioning, that there’s a fearfulness of empowerment. I’ve always been fascinated by that fear.
In spite of those who may disagree with them, P&N have gone from strength to strength, building a following that shares their values and cares about creating a more open, supportive and inclusive creative sector. While Elaine, Louise and Misha are all powerhouses in themselves, the existence of P&N is all about the artists they platform. So, I asked who out of their guests has particularly inspired them this year during such hard times for the industry.
M: There was one point where I was really dejected down about the industry, and we did the podcast with Adura Onashile. Her energy, her enthusiasm, her inspirational ideas and the way she looked at things really boosted my perception. It really relit that fire for me. It was all stuff that I already knew, but hearing it fresh from someone who had overcome so many of their own adversities was phenomenal.
L: One of my favourite people we’ve ever had on the podcast was screenwriter Raisah Ahmed. I also had a good wee cry when we spoke to Debbie Hannan, who is the incoming co-artistic director of The Traverse. Nelly Kelly, a non-binary playwright, was a great laugh and always has so many intelligent things to say.
E: There’s so many that have blown me away but Jamie Lapsley is amazing. I tend to fall in love with our guests.
M: Elaine falls in love and cries. It’s like podcast bingo; if you’ve done both then it’s a full house.
E: But yeah, there’s been loads. Ashlee Haze is a spoken word poet based in Atlanta who was recommended to us through a friend. We just reached out and she was up for it. One of the bonuses of Covid is that the podcast has really branched out. Patricia Panther was also a joy of joy of joys. The way that she talks about the importance of art is amazing and she always says ‘let the artists lead the way’. We’re now five months down the line from that podcast and that line is still resonating with me.
L: In all these conversations, thinking about the context of Covid and what it means afterwards, I’m really excited about the ideas being generated around building a better industry. We’ve always had these conversations in Persistent & Nasty, but Covid has really sharpened them because we’ve really had to rip it up and start again. Our industry has been decimated, and so, we need to build a new one out the other side. There needs to be a blueprint for how we can make it way better than it was before.
Ultimately, with their set-in stone values and unwavering passion for their practice, the efforts of groups like P&N are key to achieving a better world for creatives. After an hour of chatting to Elaine, Louise and Misha, I honestly could have babbled for another three. But I wanted to close with some advice from them on how, like P&N, we can be better allies in the arts, and any advice that they had on how to power through these unprecedented times.
M: The succinct answer for me is don’t be scared about saying the wrong thing. If you are saying anything from a place of love, and you’re trying and you’re wanting to include people and bring people in - if it truly comes from a place of empathy, then if you get it wrong someone can correct you. Ultimately, we will make mistakes, but this isn’t something to be swept under the carpet and ignored when you are trying to be better.
With representation, diversity and equality, we should constantly be trying to bring people into the rooms who aren’t there. That doesn’t change our place in the room, we’re still sitting in the room, but by bringing other people in that room it becomes richer, more interesting. And thus, our seat becomes better. And everyone’s seat becomes better because we’re in a better room.
E: That’s why she’s our sunflower.
What’s most important for me is remembering that if we aren’t learning then we’re stagnant. And nothing changes. You only have the fear of saying the wrong thing if you care. The people that don’t care will say it regardless. If you’re open to being corrected, on whatever it is, then you’ll move on and you’ll learn.
Being a good ally in any situation is being open. Listen. Really listen. Don’t talk when the person is speaking. And, have their back in a situation that might make you feel fearful to. But you are the one with the privilege to make a change - so step forward.
If your fear is what’s going to happen to the industry then I feel it to, believe me. However, art is everywhere. It surrounds us. It is in everything we do - and it can’t die. It won’t die. It’ll just shift, and it might take a wee hit for the next few years, but some really interesting things could come out of that.
L: I think that the freedom to fail thing that Misha touched on is really important. Also, don’t beat yourself up if you don’t feel like you’re being a good enough ally. Be compassionate and have faith that your compassion will see you through. Listen to other perspectives and challenge your own. Look at being challenged as being a positive thing. Because it’s an opportunity to learn, and grow, and be better. Being an ally is disorderly and difficult work because the odds are stacked against you. Because of that, this won’t be easy. But that’s all the more reason to be kind to yourself.
E: Also wash your hands and wear your mask.
L: Yep, wash your hands and wear your mask. And don’t be a dick. It always boils down to – don’t be a dick.
M: But be nasty.
To keep up to date with Persistent & Nasty, listen to their podcast on Spotify or follow them on Instagram and Twitter to hear about their upcoming work and events.